THE HON MARK DREYFUS KC MP
ATTORNEY-GENERAL
CABINET SECRETARY
MEMBER FOR ISAACS
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
TV INTERVIEW
ABC AFTERNOON BRIEFING
WEDNESDAY, 5 JUNE 2024
SUBJECTS: Introduction of legislation to ban deepfakes material, eSafety Commissioner v X Corp, threats to MPs and electorate offices, Tourism Australia estimates, NACC referrals, AEC proposed redistribution.
GREG JENNETT: Mark Dreyfus, we really appreciate your time on a busy sitting week, no less, so thanks for joining the program. Now you've introduced a bill to the parliament today to criminalise and heavily punish the creation and distribution of deepfake pornographic imagery. There's a few layers to this, it seems to me, we're in rather uncharted territory here because this law deals with links between a real person and what could be in some cases, a completely fake set of pixels. How does the law deal with the likeness of this material to a real person?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well, this is a deeply humiliating and degrading form of abuse. It overwhelmingly affects women and girls, and we think that it's past time for legislation that expressly deals with this kind of behaviour - the sharing of these sexualised images. And that's what the legislation I've introduced today does, it puts very heavy penalties on the sharing of this kind of image digitally.
JENNETT: How do prosecutors prove that a fake image, let's say of a woman called Angela, resembles closely enough the real person, Angela, so as to bring a prosecution using these laws?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: We're confident that these offences will be able to be prosecuted, we've worked very closely with the Australian Federal Police who've got of course expertise in investigating and bringing prosecutions for digital offences like this. And they have got technology that will enable them not only to find people who share, not only to work out who created the image, because there's an aggravated offence if you are the creator of the image, but to bring prosecutions.
JENNETT: Okay, so it's kind of technology driven in its detection, is it? Because it seems to me this material is proliferating, obviously, on the net, and high profile victims, namely celebrities, in many cases invariably attract more attention with their 2 million plus views than a woman in the suburbs who might only get 200. How would they prioritise prosecution against those two or one of those two choices?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: As always, I will leave this up to the Australian Federal Police to determine how they prioritise but they will have their own investigative capacity, and they'll be able to act on complaint. So it's not dissimilar, if you like, to the work that, for example, the Australian Center to Counter Child Exploitation, which is an arm of the Australian Federal Police operating out of headquarters in Brisbane, they decide how they'll investigate, who they'll investigate, and of course, they receive complaints and act on those complaints.
JENNETT: And will they be additionally resourced to take on what could be a heavy additional workload?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: We're going to make sure that the Australian Federal Police is adequately resourced and as I say, we've worked with the AFP in the development of this legislation. They are confident that it is worthwhile legislation to send a very clear message of our nation's disapproval of this kind of sharing of sexualised images.
JENNETT: Alright now at the nub of this is consent. For those not familiar with how the law might work, how will that be expressed?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well clearly if it's someone that is a complete stranger, think celebrity, someone that is unknown to the person sharing the image or the creator of the image there won't be any issue about consent at all. Overwhelmingly, in these cases, there's no suggestion of consent. We are not, I repeat not, we're not seeking to criminalise consensual sharing of images. That's not what this legislation is for. It's where there is no consent, where you've got, often using artificial intelligence or some kind of digital modification, the creation of sexualised images of an identifiable person.
JENNETT: It's timely that you should point out consensual images because the social media platform X, you might be aware has just changed its user rules in such a way that subject to certain requirements, it will permit pornographic and explicit material on its platform, over 18 is one requirement. The catch is that verification of age isn't at all simple on some of these platforms. With that in mind, does this move by the company complicate the general effort by regulators and the government to control this material?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well this is a separate topic, if you like, to the deepfakes legislation that I brought to Parliament today. But we expect all social media platforms to comply with Australian law. If X is going to permit pornographic material to be on its platform that raises the possibility of very undesirable contact that children might have with this material. And we are going to accelerate our efforts to get to some kind of age verification system that protects children against contact with this kind of material.
JENNETT: You will do that, I think that's been foreshadowed. But as a general observation, this move by the platform is runs counter to the government's endeavours. Would you say?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well it's something that raises the possibility of children having access to this kind of material, which is obviously undesirable, would obviously be of concern to the whole community, particularly parents, and the government is going to work hard to make sure that we can get to some workable age verification system. It's something that my colleague, the Minister for Communications Michelle Rowland is working very hard on.
JENNETT: Quick one on electronic material. Finally, the eSafety Commissioner has announced publicly that she will discontinue in the Federal Court the action against Elon Musk's X relating to the Wakeley stabbings is that hauling up the white flag in one sense?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well, these are decisions for the eSafety Commissioner. She is an independent agency of the Commonwealth, not directed by the Government. But again, our Government expects all social media platforms including X to comply with Australian law and to apply Australian societal standards.
JENNETT: Alright let's move on away from that area because there's so many other fascinating parts of your portfolio Mark Dreyfus. As minister responsible for the AFP and through it protective services to MPs, Commissioner Reece Kershaw noted recently that there have been 725 threats to parliamentarians in this current financial year about to end. How many MPs electorate offices are either unused or substantially unused because of attacks on them or threats made to them?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: This is something that's variable from time to time, but quite a number of MPs electorate officers have been attacked, have been criminally damaged. There have been threats made against electorate office staff, including criminal damage to my own electorate office just last Friday, when the office was unable to be used. Of course it's a concern. The Australian Federal Police have got expertise here, as the Commissioner made clear in estimates. And we are relying on the Australian Federal Police to make sure that there is safety, make sure that electorate office staff are safe. And most importantly Greg to make sure that communities who rely on these electorate offices for their access to government, for making complaints to their members of parliament are able to access those offices that they remain open.
JENNETT: So as you say the number of offices affected by a protest action in some sort will vary but as we speak, would it be a handful or double digits that are not functioning?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: It varies from day to day, but I have been made aware by the Australian Federal Police and by colleagues of a number of offices that have had to close for multiple days in the last several months. What that means is that the access that their constituents, that their communities deserve to have to their members of parliament is being impeded. And, frankly, it's something that's completely against Australian democratic practice. I'm very concerned about the role of the Greens political party has played in this. I think that the Greens political party and particularly the Leader of the Greens political party have got something to answer for here in the way that they have been encouraging criminal damage of MPs electorate offices, encouraging really riotous behaviour, sometimes violent behaviour, that has been occurring outside electorate officers.
JENNETT: We'll question them about that if we get the opportunity. The Anti-Corruption Commission, I wonder if it's starting to block out the sun a little as the supreme investigator of corruption allegations, it's well into its work now, 3000 referrals, 21 investigations. We discovered at estimates last night that Tourism Australia has referred and only referred the misuse, alleged, of $137,000 in taxpayer funds. But Tourism Australia told the Senate you can't ask us about that because we've referred. Is that in the original design? Because this could catch on couldn't it, where parliamentary scrutiny is blocked out by virtue of a referral? Should agencies and departments answer questions even if they've made a referral?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well, there's a tension there isn't there, between the ability of Parliament to examine all matters of government and not compromising an investigation by the National Anti-Corruption Commission. We set up the National Anti-Corruption Commission, it commenced its operations on the 1st of July last year. So it's a couple of a couple of months off at its first year, well not quite know, we're about to come to the end of its first year of operations. It's up and running. It's entirely appropriate that it investigate allegations of corruption. That's why we set it up.
JENNETT: But not at the expense of other institutions of government, in this case, the Senate.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Of course, and that's something that's going to work out over time, we'll come to appropriate arrangements where the National Anti-Corruption Commission can investigate in an unimpeded way, which is what everyone would hope will occur. And at the same time, parliamentary processes can also unfold. From time to time, parliamentary processes may need to give way for a time not permanently but before a time to an investigation that's been carried on by the National Anti-Corruption Commission.
JENNETT: That's understood. Thanks for clearing that up. Now look, finally, Mark Dreyfus, in view of the somewhat unsettling redistribution in Victoria, it's a statement of fact to say there are more MPs than there are seats in your home state at present and plenty of discussion within your own party, the ALP, about how to resolve that. You're 17 years into federal parliament now, in the interest of generational renewal or gender equity, would you consider not standing again in Isaacs?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: No, as it happens, Greg, and I can confirm that I am planning to run again for another term, looking forward to running at the next election continuing as part of a Labor Government and I would hope, my party permitting, continuing as a cabinet minister in the next term of an Albanese Labor Government. My great concern about this redistribution is of course that I have lost a fantastic colleague, new colleague, in Michelle Ananda-Rajah, who won the seat of Higgins for the first time for Labor, has made a wonderful contribution in her two years in the parliament. And I hope she will continue to have a future in the parliament.
JENNETT: Would you back her being accommodated for the next election?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: That's going to be a matter for her and a matter for the party. But I think she's got a great contribution to make for the future.
JENNETT: Alright, you've been very clear with your own intentions on that front. And in fact, I think in all our questions and answers today. Mark Dreyfus, we really appreciate it. And if you are sticking around, we'll have many more encounters, I'm sure.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Indeed we will, I look forward to it.
ENDS
