THE HON MARK DREYFUS KC MP
ATTORNEY-GENERAL
CABINET SECRETARY
MEMBER FOR ISAACS
E&OE TRANSCRIPT
RADIO INTERVIEW
ABC RN BREAKFAST
WEDNESDAY, 17 JULY 2024
SUBJECT: MH17 10th Anniversary.
HOST, PATRICIA KARVELAS: It's 10 years since nearly 300 people lost their lives when Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was downed by Russian missiles over the east of Ukraine. 38 Australians were on board. Justice has been difficult to find for the families that have been left behind despite ongoing efforts by the Australian and Dutch governments to launch legal proceedings against Russia. Mark Dreyfus is the Attorney-General and joins us from Amsterdam where he's attending the memorial service. Attorney-General, welcome back to Breakfast.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL MARK DREYFUS: Thanks very much Patricia. I'm in The Hague, which is where the ceremony is going to be in a few hours.
KARVELAS: 10 years on, what does the MH17 tragedy mean for Australians now?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: This was a shocking event, and that's why we're having a memorial service here and I'm representing Australia at that memorial service. I started today visiting the reconstruction of the aircraft which was downed 10 years ago which was a very moving experience - a physical manifestation of the monstrous act of shooting a civilian aircraft out of the sky. And I have also met later on today with some of the families who are here for the memorial service - that's the families of the 38 people who call Australia home. We've tried through every means possible in the 10 years since this shocking event to hold those responsible to account and that's included working with Dutch authorities and investigators from Belgium and Malaysia and Ukraine to piece together what happened, to obtain convictions against the three men who were directly responsible for these murders, and we're continuing to pursue Russia in the International Civil Aviation Organization.
KARVELAS: You mentioned that you've met with some of the relatives of those killed, what have they said to you?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: They've said even now they remain shocked by these terrible events. When you are returning home from holiday or going on a holiday to Australia or going for a conference in Australia, which was the purpose of some of the passengers on this plane, when you are on a passenger flight - it's the last thing you should even contemplate that armed men with a large missile supplied to them by the Russian Federation would shoot that plane out of the sky. So the profound shock of the events has remained with family and loved ones and you can understand why that's so, you can understand why there's a sense that - and Australia fully accepts this - that we should continue to pursue and try to hold those responsible to account.
KARVELAS: It has been a whole decade since this tragedy. Individuals at the centre of the crime have been tried and sentenced in absentia, but the state of Russia hasn't been held legally responsible. How can they be responsible?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well, the findings of the District Court in the Hague, which conducted the criminal trial, leave no doubt that Russia is responsible for this terrible event. We are continuing by every means possible, as is the Netherlands who have a proceeding against Russia in the European Court of Human Rights. Our proceedings, which we are doing jointly with the Netherlands, is in the International Civil Aviation Organization, which Russia has refused to cooperate with. Russia has obfuscated at every turn. But that is continuing and we hope that it will come to a second hearing, probably in October of this year.
KARVELAS: And what would happen at that second hearing? This is the conundrum isn't it? I mean, you know, Russia has also invaded Ukraine and there is a war there. Russia is very difficult to hold to account, this is the reality. On Monday, the AFP's Simon Walsh, who helped coordinate Australia's operation Bring Them Home, told us the agency wouldn't stop pursuing justice. Are you committed to backing authorities long term on this, even if it takes another decade?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: There's no doubt. The evidence absolutely clearly shows that the Russian Federation is responsible for supplying the missile and the principal reason why there has not yet been a conclusion is that Russia is obstructing all efforts to obtain justice. We're going to pursue Russia in the International Civil Aviation Organization and we're hopeful of a successful result in what are unusual proceedings. But this is the international organisation that is responsible for passenger safety. It's the right place to be pursuing Russia and the outcome that we are looking for is one where Russia is directed to enter immediately into good faith negotiations on the issue of reparations which includes compensation. No matter how long it takes we will continue to cooperate and work with the Netherlands with Malaysia with Ukraine and Belgium investigators who've also joined the Joint Investigation Team which was set up for the purpose of getting to the bottom of the events which occurred. We're not going to let this go. We will continue to pursue those responsible. Our aim is to have those who have been convicted in absentia end up in jail and our aim is to hold Russia legally, directly responsible and to obtain compensation. And we're not going to let it go Patricia.
KARVELAS: Yeah, the plane was hit over the east of Ukraine, which was already under the control of Russian backed separatists. Should this have been a warning of what was to come?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well, perhaps with hindsight, one can say that, but I don't think anyone was prepared for the commencement of the war against Ukraine and the aggression that we've seen, the large-scale aggression which Russia continues to inflict on Ukraine and the Ukrainian people on every single day. At that point 10 years ago Russia was backing groups known as Russian separatists, that's the groups to which the three men who've been convicted belonged. But yes, perhaps with hindsight, one should have said if Russia was prepared to supply huge military missiles, one of which was used to bring down MH17, perhaps we should have seen what was coming.
KARVELAS: Could the global community have done more at the time to stop the full invasion that was to come years later?
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Well, again, with hindsight, perhaps more should have been done when Russia showed its aggression and took over the Crimea. But we are now in the situation where Russia has launched full scale war against Ukraine. We've made our position clear which is that we are going to continue to assist Ukraine in every way possible. Our Defence Minister has, just now at NATO, announced a further large package of assistance for Ukraine, and all of the members of NATO have made clear their backing of Ukraine in order to assist the Ukrainian people to resist this aggression from the Russian Federation.
KARVELAS: Mark Dreyfus, thank you for joining us.
ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Thanks very much, Patricia.
ENDS
